Curse

twicky_kid · Aug 19, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45

No we still run the putrid build to this day. Many people know the build. I don't know if its on this forum or not. Your fame numbers are exagerating. Once we started holding halls its 10 minutes between battles. Match could go anywhere from 5-15 minutes somtimes. You are also ommitting when no opponents were available and the counter resets.

As for the eoe situation at on the Halls map (not HA in general) We pulled the same trick that IWAY does. Let the eoe nuke everyone. Ghost is unaffected by it. We have 1 Heal party monk sitting outside of eoe range. After the nuke he heals the ghost. EoE used to be a problem when it chained outside its area. Now its a breeze.

You have to kill 1 of the teams very quickly. Between wells, putrid and some other aoe dmg this isn't very hard when they come in on the stairs. Btw I was with Banofee when we where holding.

Leechers/afkers are going to be a problem. You really can't do anything about them. As for the EoE greifers. That cold hard evidence that it happens. Its not hard to spot a team that is doing that. The action should have been punished or make it where EoE will not work before the match starts. Hell they fixed it so that EoE will not kill after a match ends so you could pick up your items in HA. They have the ability to make it happen right now but they didn't.

tomcruisejr · Aug 19, 2006, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortoise

2. @tomcruisejr, twicky and others, reasoning away the EoE problem in HoH.

I'm sorry but you have no clue. I gave you a situation, you fail to adress it. Stating to simply nuke the spirit is failing to see the point. For your ease let me summarize it again:

2.1 You cannot put a guy on the ranger dropping the EoE. Why? Because you need all your resources elsewhere: either interupting/stopping interupts or trying to hold out against two teams.

2.2 You cannot kill the spirit. Why? Because you won't be in range of it. By the time you get in range the bomb has exploded. Heck, even if you would get magically past all the defensive traps in time you won't be able to kill it in time unless you can one-shot it.

2.3 You can't Heal party it. Why? Because any decent EoE bomb will kill everything in its range in less then 2 seconds. Heck, I've known EoE bombs to kill everything even with two people spamming heal parties and getting three of them off.
Once again you seem to fail to realize that in most cases there will be 22 to 23 people dying there. A full edge bomb in an HoH situation will hit for 1000+ damage. Yes, if you can magically pull off 8 Heal parties during the edgebomb you'll be able to barely survive. Then again, if you can pull off 8 heal parties durnig one edge bomb you're just facing the most horrible bomb the world has ever seen. (oh and yes, we ARE talking about Iway bombing).

2.4 The suggestion to kite outside of it's range when we're talking about altar situations is laughable.

2.5 During all of this I have never suggested any of you is unskilled. Leave the insulting comments aside and try and comprehend the situation for a change.

To summarize: your counter would have to be something that is able to stop the shutdown the effect of the spirit in a timeframe off less then 3 seconds without you being forced to be in range.

Neither of you seems to have faced a decent bomb in an HA holding situation.

Oh, and Twicky, don't be silly. If you hold halls for 6 hours two days in a row you would have at least earned 1720 fama points and you'd be rank 7 in two days. Not rank 3. Oh and btw: I searched for 'putrid build'. Nothing came up... The only thing I can think of are builds that used the pre-nerfed putrid from one year ago.

1) You can put a guy on the ranger dropping the EoE
2) You can kill the spirit.
3) You can Heal party it.

But you can't because you dont wanna do it. there's nothing in game that prevents you to do those three.

It's not the problem of game design. It's your problem.

Mithie · Aug 19, 2006, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

1) You can put a guy on the ranger dropping the EoE

And what? Let them happily cap the altar while you're busy taking ONE CHARACTER out of your build to take on an entire IWAY team?

Quote:

2) You can kill the spirit.

Sure, run 50 miles into the middle of nowhere straight into a densely trapped area and hope you can gank it before you get owned by their entire team while the other team just goes and caps the altar? Oh, and even if you do gank it, oath shot, OH LOOK, there it is again, FARTHER this time.

Quote:

3) You can Heal party it.

The whole point of EoE is that it's a chain reaction that kills everything within SECONDS, Heal party is a TWO SECOND cast time spell.

Quote:

But you can't because you dont wanna do it. there's nothing in game that prevents you to do those three.

Sure there are.
1, the other team trying to cap the altar.
2. the fact that the spirit is placed miles away from the rest of your team.
3. the fact that it takes far less skill to trigger an EoE bomb successfully than countering it successfully.

Quote:

It's not the problem of game design. It's your problem.

No, it's a problem in the game design and players abusing that problem which cause for one dimensional strategies with little depth.

tomcruisejr · Aug 19, 2006, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

And what? Let them happily cap the altar while you're busy taking ONE CHARACTER out of your build to take on an entire IWAY team?

if you need your 8 man team to shutdown 1 oathshotter with EoE, you shouldnt be in HA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

Sure, run 50 miles into the middle of nowhere straight into a densely trapped area and hope you can gank it before you get owned by their entire team while the other team just goes and caps the altar? Oh, and even if you do gank it, oath shot, OH LOOK, there it is again, FARTHER this time.

watch IWAY teams in HoH and look where they summon the EoE. dont exagerrate please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

The whole point of EoE is that it's a chain reaction that kills everything within SECONDS, Heal party is a TWO SECOND cast time spell.

if an IWAY team wants to produce a total EoE bomb, their necros will stop heal partying.

Mithie · Aug 19, 2006, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

if you need your 8 man team to shutdown 1 oathshotter with EoE, you shouldnt be in HA.

No. Please read my statement over again. I'm saying every character you split off the deal with the spirit spammer is one character nowhere near the altar dealing with capping.

twicky_kid · Aug 19, 2006, 06:12 PM // 18:12

HA is always going to have problems with spirits. Its a confrontational map with no where to run. Unless you know how to battle spirits you might as well not set foot in HA.

The spirits are not to blame here. They are being used in a situation that takes advantage of their great power. If you want to blame some one blame yourself for not bringing something to take care of the spirit through you build or tactics. 1 Unatural sig will kill any ranger spirit in 3-4 hits from a ranged distance. You will always run into spirits every single match in HA so it will never be a wasted slot.

EoE is still usefull but now will not do the job it was intended to do. It has the word extinction in its name for a reason. Now you are going to have chance situations where there was some one ^90% and doesn't get touched while everyone else got bombed.

tomcruisejr · Aug 19, 2006, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

No. Please read my statement over again. I'm saying every character you split off the deal with the spirit spammer is one character nowhere near the altar dealing with capping.

well if you dont do that, you deserve to be EoE bombed then.

Mithie · Aug 19, 2006, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

well if you dont do that, you deserve to be EoE bombed then.

Well, I can flip that around and tell you that if you can't kill Urgoz without resorting to EoE bombing then you don't deserve to play PvE. These superficial insults gets us nowhere in this discussion.

It takes far less skill to trigger an EoE bomb than it is to counter it. That's why I think the skill is unbalanced. Now, you can say I have no skill or that I'm not skilled enough to counter EoE all day long, but will that get us anywhere? No.

perfect · Aug 19, 2006, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

No we still run the putrid build to this day. Many people know the build. I don't know if its on this forum or not. Your fame numbers are exagerating. Once we started holding halls its 10 minutes between battles. Match could go anywhere from 5-15 minutes somtimes. You are also ommitting when no opponents were available and the counter resets.

Oh your matches in Hall of Heroes stretch to 15 minutes? 10 minute waits between battles? Oh sorry, yea I guess you could hold 6 straight hours then, spamming putrid with its 5 seconds recharge. Sorry, I guess I got confused.

twicky_kid · Aug 19, 2006, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by perfect

Oh your matches in Hall of Heroes stretch to 15 minutes? 10 minute waits between battles? Oh sorry, yea I guess you could hold 6 straight hours then, spamming putrid with its 5 seconds recharge. Sorry, I guess I got confused.

Putrid is just 1 skill out of 64. Learn to use some common sense. Not my fault the other teams can't kill each other quickly.

15 minutes is a rare case but its not to say that it doesn't happen. Notice I said 5-15 minutes. You conveintly left out the 5 to 15 minute range to further you bias opinion.

Don't turn this page into a flame war. If you want to flame take it elsewhere. Next time I'll alert a mod.

Legendary Shiz · Aug 19, 2006, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

No. Please read my statement over again. I'm saying every character you split off the deal with the spirit spammer is one character nowhere near the altar dealing with capping.

I like how you assume that 100% of the teams in HoH were using EoE. That's the way it seems.

And uh, if you send something off to take care of the spirit spammer, that makes 7v7 does it not? Not sure how even numbers would equal a disadvantage.

Legendary Shiz · Aug 19, 2006, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Putrid is just 1 skill out of 64. Learn to use some common sense. Not my fault the other teams can't kill each other quickly.

15 minutes is a rare case but its not to say that it doesn't happen. Notice I said 5-15 minutes. You conveintly left out the 5 to 15 minute range to further you bias opinion.

Don't turn this page into a flame war. If you want to flame take it elsewhere. Next time I'll alert a mod.

Chill out dude, it's just a message board. It's people like you that get threads closed reporting to mods.

BTW, it's not like you weren't replying to everything he said as well

Mithie · Aug 19, 2006, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

I like how you assume that 100% of the teams in HoH were using EoE. That's the way it seems.

I'm not. When did I assume that? I apologize if I gave you that impression, it wasn't my intent.

Quote:

And uh, if you send something off to take care of the spirit spammer, that makes 7v7 does it not? Not sure how even numbers would equal a disadvantage.

That spirit spammer is sitting far away from the alter. From there, he can still lay his spirits and set off the bomb. Whereas the person you're sending off to park on him will not.

tomcruisejr · Aug 19, 2006, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

Well, I can flip that around and tell you that if you can't kill Urgoz without resorting to EoE bombing then you don't deserve to play PvE. These superficial insults gets us nowhere in this discussion.

It takes far less skill to trigger an EoE bomb than it is to counter it. That's why I think the skill is unbalanced. Now, you can say I have no skill or that I'm not skilled enough to counter EoE all day long, but will that get us anywhere? No.

Urgoz and pvp are apple and orange. in PvP, you wont be facing level 25+ players doing 100+ dmg savage shots. PvE is for farming, killing monsters, getting loots, relaxing, having a good time. Who cares if EoE makes farming easier? should be thankful right? and 55 monks and SS necros are still here anyways.

well hopefully you get the point.

and pardon my "insulting" tone. reality checks tend to sound insulting

.

perfect · Aug 19, 2006, 06:36 PM // 18:36

I'm sure they already have an eye on your thread.

There is no point debating anything with you when you fail to see anything incorrect about what you have posted and how rediculous it is. I will let someone else inform you about your "5-15 minute" Hall of Heroes matches.

Anyways, you will have to learn to live with the new EoE and every other nerf that comes due to PvP.

Peace

Matsumi · Aug 19, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

I would think mark of protection would be the only way to survive an eoe bomb, not heal party. Killing the spirit is fine, but it comes out again with a quick oath shot, so you have to keep killing it the entire time.

Either way, I'm glad they adjusted it. Now you at least have to participate somewhat in bringing their health down 10% for them to be affected.

Tortoise · Aug 19, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Attempt number 3.

1. My fame numbers only assume 5 wins per hour. Which is perfectly possible assuming you always get a group and never a second timer. That is nowhere near an exageration. In fact, I didn't even include a single win before HoH. If you only got to rank 3 after two times 6 hours holding you would average 1 match every 30 minutes. I sincerely doubt that was the case... Heck, even if the timer resetted a couple of times you would've been at least rank 5 or 6 after that long a period of holding. Anyway, it's completely irrelevant to the discussion. If you held halls for 6 hours for two days in a row then more power to you.

2. If you can afford to keep one monk out of the actual battle to just Heal Party then the teams you're facing are simply crap or you're runnign a very sick holding build. How you're holding build also manages to kill off an enemy team at the stairs before you're being a**-raped by the second team dazzles me.
Since you're strategy largely depends on another team being willing to clutter into your wards and AoE damage I highly doubt you're actually facing decent teams...

3. Specially for TomcruiseJr:

- If you want to interrupt an enemy EoE you lose one interrupter to interrupt enemy ghostlies/damage. You don't put 8 guys on him... Losing just one will hurt your team more then enough...
- Killing the EoE even if you're there when it drops will take at least 2 seconds. That is, if you have a warrior there that can freely frenzy with fully charged adrenaline and get criticals on both hits. Unnatural signet is horrible at killing spirits. More realistically it will take you at least an average of 5 seconds to get a spirit down. If the bomb doesn't hit in that 5 seconds you're just facing a crappy bomb.
- Even if you hit two heal parties during the bomb you will die. Two heal parties means you have at least two guys with heal party (which most builds don't even have). As I said to counter a full bomb with heal party in HoH you would need at least 4 to 6 casts. Unless you're entire team is packing it Heal party will only save you from an edgebomb when you're in an 8v8 situation. Not if you're in HoH.

No, we're not unwilling to do what it takes to win. It's just that you can't win when it's executed well enough. (which for completeness sake has only happened to me about 3 times maximum in about 10 months of playing HA).

Once again, we're not talking about some random Iways here. We're talking about the top Iway teams that have excellent communication.

- Spirits are a problem and trust me, every build I run has at least one very direct counter them. The problem is not not taking that counter. The problem is not being able to use that counter because that counter is needed elsewhere.

[Edit] Twicky: HoH matches are timed. They used to last 10 minutes and last 4 minutes nowadays. There can never be a 15 minute HoH match... I hope you realise it's silly to claim yourself knowledgeable when you don't seem to know this basic fact.

[Edit2] Tomcruisjr: if you split someone off you're not in a 7v7 situation. You're facing two teams so it's more like a 7vs15. There are a lot of situations where you simply cannot afford to split someone off, please stop pretending that's a possible strategy.

twicky_kid · Aug 19, 2006, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Shiz

Chill out dude, it's just a message board. It's people like you that get threads closed reporting to mods.

BTW, it's not like you weren't replying to everything he said as well

I may respond to his post but I do not take anything he said out of context. I pointed out valid counters that are used to this day. Teams know they are going to deal with spirits when they go in HA.

Mods won't close a post from 1 flamer. Once it starts and war with many people then its closed.

Other people are saying the exact same thing I am but he singles out my comments and twist them.

As for dealing with spirits its all in your build. If you do not prepare for them then you are going to have problems. Is that because the spirits are imbalanced? No its not. Its because your team did not prepare for the environment you are entering.

perfect · Aug 19, 2006, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Might as well give up Tortoise, tomcruisejr is from MATH or used to be when they were primarily Iway so he is probably just bitter that one of their strategies is not as easy to pull off. Twicky thinks Hall of Heroes matches can last 15 minutes. There is obviously no reasoning here, just griefing. No point in making this thread any longer.

tomcruisejr · Aug 19, 2006, 07:12 PM // 19:12

i dont care if they nerf any skill in game. it's just nerfs benefit unskilled scrubs who dont even try think or do the simple counters.

and thats not griefing.

change has been done. have to live with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortoise

- Even if you hit two heal parties during the bomb you will die. Two heal parties means you have at least two guys with heal party (which most builds don't even have). As I said to counter a full bomb with heal party in HoH you would need at least 4 to 6 casts. Unless you're entire team is packing it Heal party will only save you from an edgebomb when you're in an 8v8 situation. Not if you're in HoH.

you want your healparty's to prevent EoE bomb from happening. Not as a direct counter to an EoE bomb.